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Gene_Leone_Mix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gene_Leone_Mix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 26 2008 at 1:36pm


Jeff and Toad!!!

***LOL***

Geno

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M I X E Y Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 26 2008 at 8:38pm
Scientologists are being described here by some of us as being unable to think for themselves and being nuts and crazy... gang mentality, etc.  This isn't right from my viewpoint.
 
Scientologists are generally high functioning people, who have a genuine caring for others... not just members of their church... but the population in general.
 
They sell books and try to get members, etc... but they also do a lot of work in the community that has nothing to do with money or getting people to join their church.
 
Within any organization there are fanatics.  People in high places, within organizations can also be prone to subjugating good people, who meant well and had all of the right intentions.
 
If I have any objections with that group, it's in what took place in the 70's and on.  It was more of a think tank in the 50's and 60's, where people were encouraged to be creative. Now, the ability to question and add new ideas has been reduced.  That's a mistake, IMO.
 
It's a bit like what happened in classical music.  The great classical composers jammed with each other and shared ideas.  Somewhere along the line, classical music became this area that could only be duplicated. Take a great classical piece, and try and have fun with it, and all of a sudden you've committed a sin of some sort.
 
It was a mistake to have called Scientology a religion.  Hubbard made that concession himself.  I met him in 1976.  To me, he was a man, who was consumed by issues that he would have had, even if he had lived a quiet, unassuming life.
 
The reason Hubbard called it a religion, is because he was analyzing how people think, within the scope of things.  That comes under the heading of Psychology. 
 
Psychology has a monopoly on who is allowed to develop those kinds of ideas. That's a lot of money motivated nerve!!!
 
Was there a money motivation in Scientology? Yes!!!  Was it a good idea to get it into a tax exempt status... sure... why not? The only thing they were really allowed to do was make money. What started out as workable ideas, had to be combined with Sci-Fi and made into a religion, just in order to exist.
 
Even in the area of education. . . look what happens. . .
People tell other people that if they don't learn or think in a way that fits with our educational system, that they're unfit thinkers.  That to me is crazy and money motivated!!!
 
We have a lot of intelligent thinkers, who don't fit into our educational system. 
 
Tom Cruise experienced living with the dyslexia label, and felt unworthy. He was helped by Scientology.
 
Cruise feels that Scientology "cured" him. Truly, there was nothing wrong with him in the first place. If they were able to free him up to know that, then I think it was a good thing.
 
Chick Corea has been banned from performing in Germany a couple of times, because he thanks Hubbard for his inspiration.
 
What kind of a fucked up government would prevent a guy from playing a keyboard?  Isn't that just a tad paranoid and crazy???
 
People label Scientologists and make them feel like shit for no reason.
 
This isn't fair... and it causes a continuing persecution syndrome, which may or may not be perpetuated by money motivations within the church's hierarchy, similar to the need to enslave Americans with the "war on terror" bullshit.
 
People need to quit labeling people. I think more people, regardless of their beliefs, would experience a greater personal freedom without being continually in receipt of harsh judgement.
 
If a person wants to leave Scientology, they find that they are met with harsh judgement on the outside.  How is that helpful??  Isn't that a gang mentality??
 
How about all of the musicians and really creative people who are in Scientology? Would these people feel unwelcome here on Soulful Planet??
 
That's not what I'm about; but everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
 
Mixey
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2008 at 7:04am

I assess people based on what they demonstrate to me.

I don't like to jump to conclusions, or judge books by their covers.

Here's how I describe my outlook: "At the end of the day, character is what matters to me. Your ethnicity, politics, and religion is of far less importance."
 
Sometimes, a person's character comes shining through and it takes very little time to take the measure of that individual. Sometimes, people are hard to read, and their motives raise questions. But I'm usually willing to give everybody a shot at showing me their true colors before I make up my mind about them.
 
The scientologists I met and spoke to in 1979 did not impress me. They asked me about myself but were not listening to me. They were not interested in dialogue; my interviewer did not want to answer my direct questions. They were utterly dismissive of my life experience without knowing anything about me. This was an incredible turn-off. The only thing they demonstrated that night was that they were in a hurry to get me on board with their mode of thinking, and to acquire a considerable amount of my personal information right up front.
 
I found my interviewer to be abrupt, inattentive, and impersonal. My observations were based on what she and her three colleagues demonstrated to me. The film I was asked to watch was poorly produced, and poorly presented. The content was obscure, uneven, and in many spots utterly illogical.
 
Walking away that night, I gave the entire experience two thumbs down. I consider this a fair assessment, all based on my first-hand experience.
 
I am not willing to paint every Scientologist with the looney brush. I would prefer to meet a Scientologist in person and allow them to share their beliefs with me before I judge them. Having said that, I recall my own experience very well, and I have to wonder if many other believers experienced that same kind of treatment; chances are they did. I know I would have to ask them about this, and whether they also found their initial treatment a little suspect.
 
Then if I found them to be receptive to questions, I'd have many more to ask them about their belief system. What I watched and heard from L. Ron that night did much to impress me in a negative way, and made me wonder what the guy's agenda really was.
 
 
 
Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s. p. a. t. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2008 at 8:40am

Here will be my tube time for tonight Gene.  Great topic Mixey! ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap

One of our friends left the church after he got to OT3 operating thetan level 3.  Scientology was his life for many years and I believe it has caused him some hardship because he doesnt talk about it.
 
SP AT Coolgeorge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2008 at 2:29pm
     Mixey,
    I don't have any problem with people being religious,or picking
a religion based on their beliefs.  Organized religion is what I have issues with. A person can believe whatever they want, just don't try and push
it down my throat.
     I don't need to be "Converted","Witnessed",or "Saved".
 I don't believe that any religious group has all the answers for a
good and productive life.
    I have attended many, many different churches..and all were said to have "issues" with other religions, including many like theirs.
  Money concerns rule the day at most churches.
      I do not need to be "Seen" when I worship. I think it is a vanity
pursuit for people to attend large,and wealthy churches..dressed to the nines, and roll up in a luxury car. Does God love the rich more?
  Are there good scientologists? ...Sure ! Are there good folks in other
 religions?...you bet!  I look at religions like I look at governments...
  Good people with bad leadership.
      Scientology sounds like Heavens gate to me...sorry.
  When they discover a religion with all the answers,...call me.
 Untill that day, don't push the rest on me. I can do without the confusion.
   
Down, and nearly out in Detroit......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lindzay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 12:08am
I tell people all the time that there are /is no God or gods........just you and me and about 5 billion other people on a beautiful planet.........I also believe that we are the first and only life in the universe.......possibly we are the first life as we know it........


My belief until I shake feet with an alien that is.


Religion sucks so bad!Community works........One World!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 3:09am
      When we leave this earth, and meet our creator, it is said that we
must atone for our sins. Judgement day.
    I am told by some, that if you go to church enough,give enough,
 and praise your creator enough, you can by-pass the judgement, and set
yourself down at [his/hers] right hand.
     In my view,...all must stand and atone for your sins. Nobody gets a pass.
      The judgement clause keeps everyone in line. If you believe you can by-pass it, then the amount of sin you commit, doesn't matter.
    The concept of a judgement day doesn't bother me. If I must
atone for my sins, I feel I can do that and face the music.
     If my creator thinks I am worthy, then I guess thats a good thing.
 If not,...oh well...I gave it my best shot.
      I think those that believe they are getting a free pass, will be in
for a shock if judgement day is for real.
    I like to think someone created this earth.
 "Everyone wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die" Albert King
Down, and nearly out in Detroit......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M I X E Y Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 6:12am
Jeff you said:
 
"The scientologists I met and spoke to in 1979 did not impress me. They asked me about myself but were not listening to me. They were not interested in dialogue; my interviewer did not want to answer my direct questions. They were utterly dismissive of my life experience without knowing anything about me. This was an incredible turn-off. The only thing they demonstrated that night was that they were in a hurry to get me on board with their mode of thinking, and to acquire a considerable amount of my personal information right up front."
 
I agree with your feelings about your experience.
If someone asks me a question, and then they don't listen to the answer, because they're more interested in directing my thoughts... I'm out of there... EXCEPT if I am already looking to find out more past whomever I'm dealing with at the moment.
 
I am in agreement with most of ideas hubbard had about how I react in a counter survival way, if I'm dealing with my reactive bank that I've accumulated.  I agree that it's possible to live in a more responsible and less judgmental manner.
 
I could never be a Scientologist, even though I agree with almost all of Hubbard's philosophy on knowing how to know.
 
The church business itself is reacting in a counter survival manner, as is evidenced by what you experienced. 
 
They have problems confronting what actually is.  Yet they are teaching how to recognize things for what they are.  Therein LIES the problem.
 
Toad. . . you said:
 
"I look at religions like I look at governments... Good people with bad leadership"
 
I know what you mean.  That's why I tend to not want to get mixed up with groups that rely on the control of a head master figure.
 
If a group is all about empowering each other as individuals, taking responsibility for themselves, and celebrating that with each other... that's great.  Then there's no dependence created, etc.
 
Hubbard's insight into the truth about how the mind works is brillant in many ways; and then biblically saying that the truth will set you free makes sense to most people.  If you read his many books, it's astounding how much went into the whole thought process.
 
However, the church of Scientology has become that of their founder's definition of a control case.
 
The whole process makes foot soldiers out of people who want to help humanity, because they believe that they are the only ones who are qualified to do it.
 
It's a military model... with a hail to the chief... hip hip hurray thing going on that is really annoying.
 
Most of it simply involves helping people rid themselves of their reactive minds... but then there's that other thing about handing everything that you've accomplished over to the memory of L Ron Hubbard (minus all mention of his wife Mary Sue, who helped him quite a bit, but has been written out of history).
 
I don't think this was the original intension.  Somewhere along the track, things got mest up.
 
Linz. . .
 
I would really enjoy shaking feet with an alien.  If you come across one... please send him my way.  Give him (notice I said HIM) the directions via Google Earth. 
 
Mixey
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M I X E Y Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 6:20am
Also Toad. . .
 
About "judgement day". . .
 
It would be cool if judgement day happened on judgement day. . . and not every day up until then.
 
It seems to me that life is all about being in receipt of continual judgement until you stop breathing. . . and then finally there's some relief from it.
 
That's why freedom of speech and no policing, etc is important to me. 
 
Mixey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gene_Leone_Mix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 7:55am
Mixey, Jeff, Toad and Lindz.
"Well said!" to all here... good thinking all around!

Ok, George! This part has puzzled me for years about this topic. When someone chooses of their own free will to leave a given organization, it's usually done with a small varying degree from ...

"Ok, best wishes for You in the future, blah, blah, etc."
to
"Let the door not hit Ya where the dog shoulda bit Ya".

My question here... why is so much "hardship" leveled here? There is so much written on the net with lots of sadness, anger and fear of backlash with ex-members having been inflicted with words and actions taken that include concepts like... exclusion, ostracize, squash, suppress, nuke, delete, invalidate, discount, mute, cut your balls off socially, spiritually, financially, family-wise, etc... and all done to otherwise good individuals who gave service faithfully, but now have simply made the decision to leave the Church of Scientology organization for whatever reason.

No wonder people scream "Cult!".

What the hell is with that crap?

How can ANY organization that is supposedly trying to do "good" for others possibly condone such abuse?

I have never understood this sort of twisted logic.

Again I say... "Somebody please 'splain it at me."

Case in point... What is this about??? What is he not saying???
— To those that will be leaving scientology or already have —

He writes: "...some of you may not know it yet
but there are many that are trying to help you.
soon you will be free to think and act as individuals."




WTF?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M I X E Y Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 10:08am
George will be back tomorrow Geno.  He'll probably have some good insight into your question.
 
You wrote:
 
"My question here... why is so much "hardship" leveled here? There is so much written on the net with lots of sadness, anger and fear of backlash with ex-members having been inflicted with words and actions taken that include concepts like... exclusion, ostracize, squash, suppress, nuke, delete, invalidate, discount, mute, cut your balls off socially, spiritually, financially, family-wise, etc... and all done to otherwise good individuals who gave service faithfully, but now have simply made the decision to leave the Church of Scientology organization for whatever reason."
 
Basically... people who have gotten involved past a certain level in Scientology, find that leaving may be imperative to retain their personal integrity.
 
When they leave, they are labeled as "suppressive" by the church... and are not welcomed or accepted by people on the outside either.
 
We are primarily a music village here. 
 
Many Scientologist musicians have experienced a situation where their careers have been suppressed after leaving the church. 
 
They've been disconnected from by fellow musicians who are still in the church.  They've been abused by people on the outside, who don't understand the nature of their experience.
 
Most of the mass exodus from Scientology happened in the early 80's.  Many of those people crashed pretty hard after leaving, because there was no understanding place to go for help.
 
The guy in your video looks tired beyond belief... doesn't he?  WOW! 
 
Mixey

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lindzay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 10:15am
Soldiers in Iraq are reportedly beating up a fellow soldier who admits he is not a believer ( in God )……….huh? The soldier now has a bodyguard………..geesh!

That’s sick!

All religion should cease……….its fraudulence.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M I X E Y Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 10:28am
Not believing in what Linz?
 
Mixey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gene_Leone_Mix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 10:59am
Mixey.
I hear Ya. and yes that guy in the video looks like he has been through the mill with whatever decisions he has had to make about his life. Bizarre.

Ok... I kept looking... for more objective "documentary" stuff right close from the source,
or close to it... again trying to make sense of all of this stuff, and what the big buzz is all about.

How's this?...


—Part 1/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


—Part 2/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


—Part 3/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


continued...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gene_Leone_Mix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 11:00am
—Part 4/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


—Part 5/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


—Part 6/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


continued...


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—Part 7/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


—Part 8/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


—Part 9/9 Scientology leader, David Miscavige -Nightline Show w/ Ted Koppell —


the end...




Was that "clear"?   Thoughts?



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Well. . . I just watched them all Geno.  Good grief!!
 
All religions have been persecuted.  I agree with him on that.
 
"You have to understand"... "You have to understand"... "You have to understand"... really annoying ... How about confronting the question and taking the responsibility to respond with greater clarity??
 
Again. . . my question is. . . what happened to Hubbard's family?  Why is this guy. . . or someone else. . .  at the head of Scientology? Who is at the head of Scientology would be the better question.  There is the Religious Technology Center... and The Church of Spiritual Technology that control the Church of Scientology.  That's all I have so far.
 
Mixey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lindzay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2008 at 2:46pm
sorry, God .........I better not get drafted then.lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s. p. a. t. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2008 at 7:04am
I see your question Gene.

"Ok, George! This part has puzzled me for years about this topic. When someone chooses of their own free will to leave a given organization, it's usually done with a small varying degree from ...

"Ok, best wishes for You in the future, blah, blah, etc."
to
"Let the door not hit Ya where the dog shoulda bit Ya".

My question here... why is so much "hardship" leveled here? There is so much written on the net with lots of sadness, anger and fear of backlash with ex-members having been inflicted with words and actions taken that include concepts like... exclusion, ostracize, squash, suppress, nuke, delete, invalidate, discount, mute, cut your balls off socially, spiritually, financially, family-wise, etc... and all done to otherwise good individuals who gave service faithfully, but now have simply made the decision to leave the Church of Scientology organization for whatever reason.

No wonder people scream "Cult!".

What the hell is with that crap?

How can ANY organization that is supposedly trying to do "good" for others possibly condone such abuse?

I have never understood this sort of twisted logic.

Again I say... "Somebody please 'splain it at me." "
I don't know the answer totally Gene but I know enough not to name my friend in this thread.  That supports what most of us have observed here I think.
 
LRH had a son LRH Jr who changed his name to Ron DeWolf. 
 
 
He was interviewed along with others in this 1983 morning show.
 
Dewolf was suing to secure his inheritence thinking that his dad was dead or mentally disabled. Turned out LRH was not dead.  He died in 1986.  Supposedly he wrote his son out of his will the day before he died.
1
2
3
 
I am wondering more about what our friend went through now.  As I said, he doesn't talk about it.
 
Coolgeorge
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M I X E Y Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2008 at 11:28am
WOW. . . thanks for putting all of that up George.
 
That sure was interesting.  I was wondering about the family.  There's one of them anyway... not too happy with his father... jeez!
 
Mixey
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